Representative Tom Cole, a Republican, has brought the pragmatism of a former political operative to his work representing Oklahomaâs Fourth Congressional District. He served as a bridge between the two parties during last yearâs fiscal negotiations, when he urged fellow Republicans to accept higher taxes on the wealthiest Americans. He continues to advocate a compromise budget deal to avoid a government shutdown or a debt crisis, and he maintains a good relationship with the White House.
But Mr. Cole, whose district includes the massive Tinker Air Force Base, leans strongly against President Obamaâs request to authorize military force against Syria. During a day of meetings with constituents, he sat down with John Harwood of The Times and CNBC in Midwest City, Okla. What follows is a condensed and edited transcript of their conversation.
Q.
What about the argument that a vote no on using force is a vote for Assad, for Iran, and to weaken American leadership?
A.
Well, I donât buy the argument. First of all, you know, thatâs probably something a president should have taken into consideration when he made that decision, and I think largely without consulting with Congress, to go out on that limb. Number one, the nature of the war is pretty messy, to say the least. Itâs a civil war, itâs a proxy war between regional powers, and itâs a religious war. Is there any direct security threat to the United States here? No, thereâs really not. Is there a long-term interest in Syria? Probably not. In the region, yes, but within the country, no. Third, has this been going on a while? Yes, we know this isnât the first use.
We have no international justification at this point. The U.N. hasnât asked us to act. NATO has not taken a formal position. The Arab League is sort of â" is both divided and certainly leading from behind, to put it nicely.
If youâre the Iranians looking at this, itâs not going to appear very decisive. Weâre not trying to bring down the regime. Itâs not going to be an overwhelming military force. I have a hard time asking men and women to go into harmâs way to make a political statement.
Q.
So when your Republican colleague John McCain says a no vote from Congress would be a catastrophe, you say what?
A.
I disagree. Iâm not afraid to vote for it, I just simply donât think itâs in the American interest. I supported the president on the Afghanistan surge. Iâve supported him on continuing aid to Egypt. Itâs not particularly popular around here, but I think itâs the right thing to do. I supported him on the N.S.A. vote only last month, you know, when most of his own party in the House did not. But Iâm not going to vote for something that I think is a bad idea simply because the president of United States, you know, announced that thatâs what he wanted to do.
Q.
In a case like this that involves intelligence assessments, very complex foreign-policy calculations, what is the role of the reaction of your constituents who maybe donât pay close attention?
A.
It matters a great deal, because at the end of the day, this is not a treaty or foreign-policy move. This is a direct application of force, and it puts young men and women in harmâs way. Iâve got the largest air depot in United States, maybe the world, sitting right across the street. And believe me, if weâre in serious conflict, theyâre going to be deployed.
People around here take this stuff very seriously. Weâve had our National Guard deployed three times in combat situations, the last time in Afghanistan. They lost 20 people. Theyâre willing to sacrifice, theyâre proud to sacrifice, they are extraordinarily pleased to host the American military. But they also love the men and women in uniform, and they think long and hard before using them.
Q.
Why, in a district that is so military-oriented, are you sensing such negative reaction?
A.
I donât think, honestly, the president has yet made the case. Heâs been good enough to come to Congress. I give him credit for that, because he knew it was going to be a tough sell, but I donât think itâs been particularly well handled. There should have been a lot more discussion and consultation when the president lay down a red line, which had not existed, really, before in American foreign policy.
Itâs sort of putting us in the position in Congress of cashing a check that he wrote whether we wanted to or not. The fact that the president, on the night before he announced this, surprises his own staff at 7 oâclock in the evening â" this is the announcement the next day at 1 p.m.? Does that sound like well-thought-through, closely considered policy? I donât think it is. And itâs not the right way to think about these things, in my opinion, or to execute them.
Q.
How big is the isolationist wing within the Republican Party? Are you part of it?
A.
Iâm for a pretty robust foreign policy. Frankly, I would consider myself much more of a national security, international point of view. Iâm not for having a small military. Iâm not for abandoning our treaty obligations. I think foreign aid is a legitimate tool for foreign policy. So I donât think I would put myself in any sort of isolationist wing.
I think some [Republicans], after a decade, are wary of this sort of thing. I think they would be wary regardless of whoâs president.
Q.
Do you expect, in the end, a majority of the House to vote with the president?
A.
I donât know. I would say he certainly has a good chance to win this. I think he will win in the Senate. Heâs got the majority of his own party there. The House is going to be a tougher sell. The presidentâs going to need, I think, a substantial Democratic majority â" thatâs where his support should begin. I donât think we should look at this as an R and D situation, but having lived through this during the Bush presidency, the core of your support when youâre going to make a decision of this consequence starts in your party.
On our side, I think thereâs considerable resistance to this. The speaker and leader, theyâre not breaking arms and legs, and I think thatâs appropriate. Where they will count is, people respect them both. But at the end of the day, I donât think any of that stuff matters very much to my constituents. I think theyâre pretty well informed about this, and they will probably be better informed over the next week. It may change some minds, but so far I donât sense that, and my staff doesnât sense that. I havenât seen a case compelling enough to make me say Iâm going to ignore the public opinion of my own district.
Q.
You had, over the break, some number of your colleagues who talked with their constituents about impeaching the president.
A.
I forgive politicians a lot at town hall meetings. Everybody can be inartful in their language. It certainly comes up in my town hall meetings. I donât think itâs helpful to engage in that sort of thing. I think you have to be honest with people about both political realities and the consequences of engaging in action like that. So I just try to stay away from that because itâs not going to happen and, in my opinion, wouldnât be the appropriate thing to do. I have very strong differences with the president on a variety of issues, but also I find places where weâve been able to work together. Thatâs the way the system is supposed to work.
I canât tell you how unpopular Obamacare is. I canât tell you how strongly, in an oil and gas state, people feel about things like fracking, or what they would consider the trashing of the domestic energy industry. I canât tell you how hostile people are about the E.P.A., and regulation, and what they would consider overregulation in general. This is a very pro-military state; heâs been interested in cutting the military. This is a very pro-energy state; he has a different take on energy than we do. About the only part of our economy where heâs really well liked is on Indian affairs, which is a big part of our economy and our culture.
Q.
What effect will the debate on Syria have on the fiscal fights that weâre looking at this fall?
A.
It may, strangely enough, be helpful, because itâs not going to be a partisan debate. Itâs not going to be our team versus their team. Maybe some relationships will be built, and some cooperation and some friendship developed in a common cause. When you work with somebody on a contentious issue that is normally on the other side, you begin to understand them. So I donât think itâll make things more difficult. This debate will happen quickly and be over one way or the other. But if there is some cooperation thatâs built, and some camaraderie, that can only help as we move toward things like the end of the fiscal year and the debt ceiling.
Weâve got to come to a larger agreement here. We canât just simply be operating in the manner where every few months weâre looking at either shutting down the government or having cuts that are across the board and not well inspired. So whatever it takes to give the two sides the window to sit down and discuss, Iâm for doing. I have some hope there because, by the way, we did that in March. We didnât shut down the government. So hopefully people are beginning to think thatâs really not a very good tool to use, or weapon to use, in these kind of disputes.
Q.
Youâve talked about sensing a growing divide within your district between business-oriented Republicans who want to make a deal, and the grassroots activists who are more ready to fight and risk things like a government shutdown to end Obamacare.
Q.
The difference is a tactical one, but itâs an important one. Tactically, business groups tend to think, look, if you shut down government, youâre putting people out of work; youâre disrupting everything. It seems like youâre throwing a temper tantrum because you didnât get your way. Weâll go to work, win some more elections, bargain, make the changes you can, but donât disrupt the economy.
At a town hall meeting, people are angry about this. They think it was forced down their throats. Heâs gotten the votes, and he did win the election, and thatâs hard for them to understand. At an Oklahoma town hall meeting itâs sort of, âWhat in the worldâs wrong with the rest of the country and they canât see this?â And Iâm sure, you know, California looks that way at Oklahoma. But there is a great frustration.
One of the elected representatives here, we were talking about this and I said, âGive me a list of the 14 Democratic senators that are going to join with the 46 Republican senators to actually pass a repeal. And then give me the seven that are going to sign on after voting against the repeal to override the presidentâs veto.â
Itâs just not going to work. And at some point, you know, people are going to start asking, why in the world did you put 15,000 families without a paycheck at Tinker Air Force Base? Why in the world did you shut down a veterans center? Iâve got four of them. A lot of these guys are in their 80s or 90s and did everything the country ever asked them to do. Iâm going to make sure they donât have a hot meal or a roof over their head, somebody to help them? I think not. In this case youâre actually putting the gun to your own head. Youâre basically saying, do what I want or Iâll shoot.
Q.
In one of your town halls, a constituent said the chained Consumer Price Index on Social Security would hurt a lot of people â" âInstead of putting chains on us, why donât you put the chains on the spending?â Is the White House right in thinking that when push comes to shove, Republicans are not going to be willing to cut those programs because so many people feel that way?
Q.
I donât think they really understand where most of the spendingâs at. Weâve cut discretionary spending three years in a row. Thatâs the first time thatâs happened since the 1940s. If we could just do it by discretionary spending, believe me, we would do it. But itâs simply not enough. Itâs not a big enough piece of the pie, and itâs not a big enough driver of the debt.
Iâve actually had this discussion with the White House. And one of them made the point, look, Iâve seen these guys at Tea Party rallies, âKeep your hands off my Social Security and Medicare.â And I said, âFirst of all, youâve got to test us. We said weâre willing to do it. Test us.â I think actually this is an area where the Republican conference is quite courageous and very brave, and willing to do what it says itâs going to do.
Youâve got to make some reforms. They can be gradual, they can be over time. Thereâs some common ground in both the Ryan and Obama budgets to work from. Paul Ryan likes to call it: maybe not the grand bargain, but a down payment. And I think that is possible. The countryâs getting frustrated that they donât see adults willing to work across party lines.